Barry Bickmore is to be commended for his candid honesty when he stated in his rebuttal, "If Jesus promised that the earthly Church would continue to the end, the debate is over." This is clearly the central issue of this discussion, and we should stay focused on trying to determine whether or not Jesus actually made this promise to us. Barry acknowledges with the above statement that he knows where the crux of the debate lies. We can debate endlessly about a variety of side issues such as Purgatory, Bishops vs. Apostles, Papal infallibility, gifts and miracles, "development" of the Papacy, the nature of God, and so on. However, the question still remains: "Did Jesus Christ leave His entire flock without any earthly shepherds for almost 1,800 years of total apostasy or did He keep His promise to be with His Church until the end of time through apostolic succession?"

As Barry correctly points out, the Bible verse seemingly most harmful to the LDS case for a total apostasy is Matthew 16:18: "Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (King James Version) The phrase "gates of hell" has been translated as "powers of death" (Revised Standard Version), "gates of the netherworld" (New American Bible), and "gates of Hades" (New International Version). The "Hades" referred to here is not the same as the Greek "Gehenna" ("sheol" in Hebrew), nor the "unquenchable fire" that Jesus so often speaks of (see Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:29-30, Matthew 10:28, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:9, Matthew 23:15, Matthew 23:33, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 12:5, James 3:6). Naves Topical Index defines "Hades" as: 1) The unseen world; and 2) The realm (state) of the dead. As used in the Bible, "Hades" does not necessarily describe a dwelling place for both the just and unjust awaiting the Resurrection, as Barry would have us believe. Rather, the Bible equates it to a place of torment where "none may cross from there to us" (Luke 16:26) and "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" (Revelations 20:14). (see also Matthew 11:23, Luke 10:15, Luke 16:23, Acts 2:27, Acts 2:31, Revelations 1:18, Revelations 6:8, Revelations 20:13-14) Barry is also in error when he tries to equate "Hades" to the Catholic teaching on "Purgatory", which is a place for purification after death for those who die in God's grace and friendship but not totally purified in the holiness necessary to enter heaven. Those who go to Purgatory are assured of their eternal salvation, but after death they must first undergo purification (like a refiners fire), so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030-1032). On the other hand, those who are in "Hades" cannot leave and must endure eternal torment.

Jesus Promised the Earthly Church Would Continue

The Church

Barry suggested in his last statement that "the Church" is not just an earthly organization, but it also exists in Heaven. I totally agree! The Catholic Church teaches us that there are three different "assemblies" of the faithful:

1. A heavenly "assembly" of Saints who have died and gone before us into heaven (the Church triumphant).
2. An "assembly" of suffering souls in Purgatory who have died in God's grace and friendship but are not completely purified in the holiness necessary to enter into the presence of God (the Church suffering).
3. An earthly "assembly" of pilgrim travelers on their journey toward perfection (the Church militant).

In 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 and 1 Corinthians 12:27, St. Paul depicts the members of the church as the members of the body of Christ. Jesus Christ is the head of the entire body. Peter is the head of the visible church on earth. Jesus Christ is the head of the church triumphant in heaven, the church militant on earth, and the church suffering in Purgatory. The Catholic Church distinguishes between Jesus as the head of the entire church and Peter as the head of the church on earth. Peter was appointed to the office (holder of the keys to the kingdom of heaven) by Jesus Christ. His subsequent successors to the position hold the same authority that Peter was given.

What did Jesus mean when he changed Simon's name to Peter (Rock) and said, "upon this rock I will build my church"? Did He mean, as Barry would have us believe, that the church as an earthly organization can disappear and reappear periodically without violating Our Lord's promise to protect it from the powers of death? I don't believe that's what He meant at all. Jesus said, "I WILL build my church", indicating an action to take place at some point in the future. Since, as Barry pointed out, the church in heaven existed before the foundation of the world, Jesus must have meant the earthly church was the institution that He was going to build in the future. It is the earthly church that He promised would be protected from being overcome by the gates of hell. The Catholic Church teaches that this promise for the establishment of an earthly church was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when Mary and the Apostles were gathered in the Upper Room and the Holy Spirit descended upon them like tongues of fire (Acts 2:1-4). Jesus said, "upon this rock", indicating that it was Peter upon whom the future Church would be built. Furthermore, Jesus said, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", indicating that the earthly Church He was going to establish on the rock (Peter) would not fail. A total apostasy of the earthly Church would mean that Jesus was wrong when He made this promise.

Continuity

The leaders of the Church have always been priests and bishops. The twelve men chosen by Christ were called Apostles (Greek meaning "one who is sent or commissioned") because of their important calling from Christ to be special witnesses to His life, death, and resurrection (John 20:21 and Matthew 16:19).  Acts 1:8 tells us the Apostles were specifically chosen by Christ to go out into the world to give witness to His resurrection. In Matthew 28:18-20 Jesus gives the Apostles the "great commission" to go out to all the nations and preach the gospel. He also gives them the assurance that He will be with them always, until the end of time. When Jesus says He will be with them always, it means the Apostles and their successors will be successful in their mission from God. The successors of the Apostles were bishops (Greek meaning "an overseer") who were appointed by the Apostles to continue their mission from Christ. The bishop has the authority and power of Christ to administer all the sacraments, including ordination of other men to the priesthood. All of the Apostles were bishops, but not all bishops are Apostles. As I have stated elsewhere in this debate, there were two requirements to be called an Apostle. First, the disciple was to have accompanied the Lord Jesus from the baptism of John until the day when He was crucified, and secondly to be a witness of His resurrection from the dead (Acts 1:20-22). The principal lists of Apostles are in Matthew 10:2-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:13-16, and Acts 1:13. Once the criteria could no longer be met, the succeeding bishops were no longer called Apostles. Narratives of the early Church mention other titles such as prophet, evangelist, teacher, and pastor. These titles are not distinct from the priests and bishops in the Church. Every validly ordained bishop in the Catholic Church can trace his priesthood authority back through history to one of the Twelve Apostles. This authority has been passed on in an unbroken chain of ordinations by the laying-on of hands from the Apostles to their successors, the bishops, and to their successors, other bishops, and so on down the line throughout all of Catholic Christian history. The bishops of the Catholic Church are the successors to the Apostles in a continuous line of apostolic succession. The Catholic Church has existed continuously since the time of the Apostles, and it was founded as an earthly organization upon Peter, the rock. Thanks be to God, through the promises of Jesus Christ, the gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church founded upon the rock (Peter). The continuous existence of the Catholic Church from the beginning of Christian history is a living witness that there was no "total apostasy" in the ancient Church.

Catholic Bishops are the Successors of the Apostles

Once again I appeal to the facts of history, as handed down to us in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, to support the Catholic Church's claim to apostolic succession. Their writings do not give any indication that the Apostles were going about the business of shutting down the Church after the resurrection and ascension of Our Lord Jesus Christ. To the contrary, according to the Early Church Fathers, the Apostles were going out to the whole world, preaching the gospel, teaching their disciples the same truth that was taught to them by Christ, and appointing bishops to be their successors to continue teaching Christian believers of future generations. All of the remaining Apostles, with the exception of John the Beloved Disciple, subsequently suffered horrible martyrdom for their unswerving belief in the teachings of Christ. Many of their disciples suffered the same type of persecution and death rather than deny the truth they had received from the Apostles and their successors. Through it all the Church remained steadfast in the faith and continued to grow. Here's what some of the Early Church Fathers had to say about apostolic succession:

The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians.

Now, the Gospel was given to the Apostles for us by the Lord Jesus Christ; and Jesus the Christ was sent from God. That is to say, Christ received His commission from God, and the Apostles theirs from Christ. The order of these two events was in accordance with the will of God. So thereafter, when the Apostles had been given their instructions, and all their doubts had been set at rest by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, they set out in the full assurance of the Holy Spirit to proclaim the coming of God's kingdom. And as they went through the territories and townships preaching, they appointed their first converts - after testing them by the Spirit - to be bishops and deacons for the believers of the future. (This was in no way an innovation, for bishops and deacons had already been spoken of in Scripture long before that; there is a text that says, I will confirm their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.) 2

Against Heresies by Irenaeus [inter A.D. 180/199]. 3

It is possible, then, for everyone in every Church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the Apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the Apostles, and their successors to our own times: men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about. For if the Apostles had known hidden mysteries which they taught to the elite secretly and apart from the rest, they would have handed them down especially to those very ones to whom they were committing the self-same Churches. For surely they wished all those and their successors to be perfect and without reproach, to whom they handed on their authority. (Jurgens, para 209)

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the Churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, that Church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the Apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all Churches must agree, that is all the faithful in the whole world; and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition. (Jurgens, para 210)

The true gnosis is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient organization of the Church throughout the whole world, and the manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of bishops, by which successions the bishops have handed down the Church which is found everywhere; and the very complete tradition of the Scriptures, which have come down to us by being guarded against falsification, and which are received without addition or deletion; and reading without falsification, and a legitimate and diligent exposition according to the Scriptures, without danger and without blasphemy; and the pre-eminent gift of love, which is more precious than knowledge, and more glorious than prophecy, and more honored than all the other charismatic gifts. (Jurgens, para 242)

Tertullian - The Demurrer Against the Heretics [ca. A.D. 200]

Moreover, if there be any [heresies] bold enough to plant themselves in the midst of the apostolic age, so that they might seem to have been handed down by the Apostles because they were from the time of the Apostles, we can say to them: let them show the origins of their Churches, let them unroll the order of their bishops, running down in succession from the beginning, so that their first bishop shall have for author and predecessor some one of the Apostles or of the apostolic men who continued steadfast with the Apostles. For this is the way in which the apostolic Churches transmit their lists: like the Church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the Church of the Romans where Clement was ordained by Peter. In just this same way the other Churches display those whom they have as sprouts from the apostolic seed, having been established in the episcopate by the Apostles. (Jurgens, para 296)

There is nothing more convincing than the testimonies and writings of those who were the immediate successors of the Apostles. They received their knowledge of the teachings of Christ directly from the Apostles and/or the bishops appointed by them.

The Bishop of Rome is the Successor to Peter

I believe it is fair to say Barry and I agree that Peter was selected by Christ to have a primacy over the other Apostles. Additionally, it was upon "this rock" (Peter) that Christ promised He would build His Church. It was to Peter alone that Christ gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven. He also promised Peter infallibility (the inability to err) when He said, "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." This authority and these promises are also perpetuated in the office of the legitimate successor to Peter.

Was Peter in Rome?

According to the writings of Tertullian (Jurgens, para 297, Jurgens, para 341 and Jurgens, para 368a), St. Clement of Alexandria (Jurgens, para 439-440), St. Peter of Alexandria (Jurgens, para 611gg), Lactantius (Jurgens, para 647a), and others, we can be fairly certain that Peter went to Rome and died there along with St. Paul.

Eusebius Pamphilus, the Father of Ecclesiastical History, wrote the following account in THE CHRONICLE [ca. A.D. 303] (Jurgens, para 651aa-651cc):

Second year of the two hundred and fifth olympiad: the Apostle Peter, after he has established the Church in Antioch, is sent to Rome, where he remains as bishop of that city, preaching the gospel for twenty-five years.

Third year of the two hundred and fifth olympiad: the Evangelist Mark, interpreter of Peter, announces Christ in Egypt and Alexandria.

Fourth year of the two hundred and eleventh olympiad: Nero is the first, in addition to all his other crimes, to make a persecution against the Christians, in which Peter and Paul died gloriously at Rome.

This clearly shows that Peter was the bishop of the Church at Rome and that he died there after preaching the gospel for some twenty-five years. Additionally, Peter's successors to the office of the Bishop of the Church at Rome are specifically identified, by name, by Irenaeus. The early Christian Church recognized that the successors to Peter also held the same primacy of jurisdiction over the whole Church that Christ gave to Peter as the rock and shepherd over His sheep. Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to "bind and loose" (uphold the truth infallibly). Whoever succeeds Peter in this office also succeeds Peter to the same primacy over the universal Church of Jesus Christ, including the keys of the kingdom of heaven and the protection of infallibility when solemnly defining matters of faith and morals.

The Catholic Church has Preserved and Defended the "Apostolic Faith" Unchanged

The newly established Christian Church immediately set about the business of preserving and defending the "deposit of faith" given by Christ to the Apostles. From the very beginning there were already factions who broke away from the teachings of the Apostles. Paul tells us that even in his day there were "deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13). (See also 1 John 2:19 and 2 Peter 2:1) Let's examine the Seven Sacraments of the Catholic Church to see if these teachings and doctrines are consistent with Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers. In this way we will be able to get an indication as to whether or not the Catholic Church has preserved the "deposit of faith" from corruption. I invite members of the LDS church to make a similar examination of their own sacraments to see how well they fit into the Christian "deposit of faith" as given "once for all" (Jude 1:3) to the Apostles by Jesus Christ.

The Seven Sacraments (Early Church and today's Catholic Church)

God has given certain sacraments to the Church to be channels of His grace, His life, and His power. All of the sacraments flow from the life and ministry of Jesus Christ and are based on some aspect of Jesus' life, teaching, or ministry as recorded in the New Testament. A sacrament is "a visible, tangible sign through which God approaches us, enters into our lives, and draws us to himself through his grace.". 4  Over the centuries the Catholic Church has discerned that there are seven sacraments that were instituted by the Lord Jesus Christ. The seven sacraments are Baptism, Confirmation (or Chrismation), Eucharist (or Communion), Penance (also known as Confession or Reconciliation), Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony.

Baptism

Catholic Christians view baptism as the first step in accepting God's free gift of salvation. The sacrament is normally administered to infants (CCC 1250-1252) (see also Jurgens, para 201, Jurgens, para 394i, Jurgens, para 496, Jurgens, para 501, and Jurgens, para 585) by pouring water upon the baby's head or immersing him in water, using the words, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19). Baptism cleanses the child from the stain of original sin (Romans 5:12-21). For someone who has reached the age of reason, baptism cleanses both original sin and particular sin so that he can be incorporated into Christ and made a member of His Mystical Body, the Church. If water baptism is not possible, the same benefits can be supplied by "baptism of blood" or by "baptism of desire" under certain circumstances. In the Didache (Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, ca. A.D. 140) we read, "In regard to Baptism - baptize thus: After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water; and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." (Jurgens, para 4)

Confirmation

The Sacrament of Confirmation was instituted by Christ when He promised to send the Holy Spirit (John 14:15-21). After Pentecost when Peter proclaimed the basic gospel message, the people asked him, "What shall we do?", and Peter responded, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:37-38). The Holy Spirit first comes to a person in baptism. The Acts of the Apostles also talks about a prayer for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit through the "laying on of hands" (Acts 8:14-17). We also see mention of this prayer, which is distinct from baptism, after Paul had baptized some disciples in the name of the Lord Jesus and then laid his hands on them and "the Holy Spirit came on them" (Acts 19:1-7). The essential rite of Confirmation is anointing the forehead of the baptized with sacred chrism (in the East other sense-organs as well), together with the laying on of the minister's hand and the words: "Accipe signaculum doni Spiritus Sancti" (Be sealed with the Gift of the Holy Spirit) in the Roman Rite, or "The seal of the gift that is the Holy Spirit" in the Byzantine rite (CCC 1286-1289).

Communion (Eucharist)

The early Church called this sacrament Eucharist. It is a re-enactment of Jesus' last supper with his apostles. The word "eucharist" means "thanksgiving". During His last supper, Jesus distributed the bread and wine with the words, "Take, this is my body" (Mark 14:22); "This is my blood" (Mark 14:24); and "Do this in remembrance of me" (Luke 22:19). Later in this statement I will talk about how Jesus' words were understood by the first Christians and how the Catholic Church understands the meaning of these words today.

Confession

God, in His mercy, offers forgiveness of sins through the sacrament of reconciliation to those baptized into Christ. This sacrament is known as confession, penance, or reconciliation, depending on which aspect of the sacrament is being emphasized. Jesus scandalized many people by claiming to have the authority to forgive sins (Mark 2:7, Luke 7:49). Jesus had special authority from His Father and He passed this authority on to His Apostles (John 20:21). He then gave them the power to forgive sins in His name (John 20:22-23). (see also Matthew 18:18 and 2 Corinthians 5:18) It is interesting to note the Bible tells us that God breathed on man at only one other point in history, the first time being when he made man a living soul (Genesis 2:7). This shows how important the sacrament of confession is to God. As with the priesthood authority, the authority to forgive sins in the name of Jesus Christ was also passed from the Apostles to the bishops they appointed to succeed them. From the very earliest days of the Christian Church, it was recognized that some kind of external confession was necessary for the remission of sins (see The Didache, Jurgens, para 3 and Jurgens, para 8, St. Clement, Jurgens, para 26a, Letter of Barnabas, Jurgens, para 37, St. Irenaeus, Jurgens, para 192b-193, Tertullian, Jurgens, para 315 and Jurgens, para 316, Origin, Jurgens, para 477). Origen, in his Homilies on Numbers, wrote about seven kinds of forgiveness of sins identified in the Gospels. The seventh, he said, was "hard and laborious". It involved declaring your sins to a priest (Jurgens, para 493). (see also St. Cyprian of Carthage, Jurgens, para 553)

Anointing of the Sick

This sacrament was instituted by Christ and celebrated by the Church to offer the healing grace of God to the infirm, the aged, and for those beset by illness or ailment. It was also known as Extreme Unction (Last Rites) for those who are in danger of imminent death. The basis for this sacrament can be found in two places in the New Testament (Mark 6:13 and James 5:14-15). According to the clear testimony of the Letter of James and the definitive teaching of the Council of Trent (1545-63), the priest is the one to whom Christ through the Church has given the power to anoint. Origin lists this sacrament as one of the seven kinds of forgiveness of sins identified in the Gospels (Jurgens, para 493), and Aphraates calls it a "sacrament of life" (Jurgens, para 698).

Ordination

Ordination is also called the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Jesus set apart certain men - especially "the Twelve" - and gave them the responsibility to carry on His mission and ministry in a unique way. As I have illustrated in the other sacraments, He gave them the authority to forgive sins, to preside over the breaking of the bread (the Eucharist) in His memory, and to instruct and guide new disciples (Acts 20:28 and 1 Peter 2:24-25). These "Orders" and the authority derived from Christ were subsequently conferred by the apostles upon the elders appointed to succeed them by the "laying on of hands". These elders were known as bishops, presbyters, and deacons by the late first century A.D. (Jurgens, para 47a). The Catholic Church has preserved this basic pattern of priesthood authority and succession from the first century to today. (see writings of St. Hippolytus of Rome, St. Cyprian of Carthage, and compare to CCC 1572-1573)

Matrimony

Marriage is a contract, an institution, and a sacrament. The Catholic Church views marriage as a sacred contract or covenant, established by God as the natural means of procreating and educating his choicest earthly creatures (see Genesis 1:26-28, Genesis 1:31, and Genesis 2:18-25). Marriage is sacred because it is the means of mutual help for husband and wife, not only for their material and temporal well-being, but to lead them to God (Ephesians 5:21-33). The Catholic Church teaches that the contract of marriage between two baptized Christians becomes a sacrament. As defined by the Church, matrimony is "truly and properly one of the seven sacraments of the law of the Gospel." It was "instituted by Christ" and not merely "introduced into the Church by men." (Council of Trent, Canons on the Sacrament of Matrimony, Canon 1) 5 In other words, "because of the grace given through Christ, it is superior to the marriage unions of earlier times," and as "our holy Fathers, the councils, and the tradition of the universal Church have always rightly taught, matrimony should be included among the sacraments of the New Law." (Council of Trent, Doctrine on the Sacrament of Matrimony) 6

Marriage is an institution because the partners not only agree to take each other as husband and wife, but to continue with each other (and with whatever children God may send them) until death separates them. Unity, indissolubility, and openness to fertility are essential to marriage. Polygamy is incompatible with the unity of marriage (conjugal love is undivided and exclusive); divorce separates what God has joined together (Matthew 19:8-9); and the refusal of fertility turns married life away from its "supreme gift," the child (see GS 50).

Total Apostasy Survivors?

In his last statement, Barry said that when Latter-day Saints speak of the "apostasy", it primarily means the Priesthood authority was taken from the earth in response to man's rebellion against God. According to Barry's account, when no Priesthood keys were left on earth, the apostasy was "complete". In other words, no less than 100% of the Priesthood holders in the early Church either had their authority taken away from them or they died without properly passing on their authority through the ordination of others by the laying on of hands. A "total apostasy" means that Satan and the wicked men of the world had in fact prevailed against the Church. This view is supported by the statements of early LDS leaders such as Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith.

What if there were survivors who still held the original Priesthood keys given to them by Christ Himself? Wouldn't that mean the LDS theory of a "total apostasy" is in reality incomplete? Even if there was only one Priesthood holder who remained alive at any point in the history of the Christian Church, the "total apostasy" could not possibly be "complete", right?

Four Apostles Never Died!

According to the official canon of LDS scripture, there are actually FOUR of the original TWENTY-FOUR Apostles still alive today who never died! God allowed them to remain on the earth and "tarry in the flesh" until the Lord Jesus Christ comes again in glory. Since they are numbered among the original Apostles, they must have been given the proper Priesthood authority directly from Christ. In the absence of any other information, we must assume that they continued to preach the Gospel and live righteous lives from the time of their ordination until today. Thus, they have retained the same Priesthood authority they were given by Christ.

The four Apostles who never died, according to Mormon scripture, are the Apostle John (Doctrine and Covenants [D&C], Section 7) and the three Nephites (3 Nephi 28:7-12 and 4 Nephi 1:14). In a revelation given to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at Harmony, Pennsylvania in April 1829, John the Beloved Disciple, the only Apostle at the foot of the Cross who was a witness the crucifixion and death of Our Lord, was allowed to tarry in the flesh until Christ returns (D&C, Section 7). According to the Doctrine and Covenants Commentary by Smith and Sjodahl 7, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were discussing John 21:21-23 one day and they expressed different views on the meaning of it. In order to come to unity of faith concerning whether or not John was still alive, Joseph Smith inquired of the Lord and received the revelation contained in D&C Section 7. Smith and Sjodahl state that there was a general understanding among the apostles that John should not die until the second coming of our Lord and this revelation confirms that view. However, the Navarre Bible Commentary 8 explains that John possibly wrote these verses to dispel the idea that he would not die. If we read the text of John 21:21-23 carefully, we see that Jesus does not give a reply to Peter's question. Rather, the Navarre Commentary rightly points out that we should not be "curious about what the future will bring but to serve the Lord faithfully, keeping to the way He has marked out for one".

In the Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi Chapters 11 and 12, we read about how Christ appeared to the Nephites in the land of Bountiful shortly after His death on the cross and prior to His resurrection. He is said to have imparted on the Nephites the same gospel that He taught to the Jews in the Holy Land. During this time He also calls and commissions Twelve Nephites to be His disciples, making a total of twenty-four Apostles in the earth simultaneously. My 1982 edition of the Book of Mormon introduces 3 Nephi Chapter 28 with the following words: "Nine of the Twelve desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ's kingdom when they die - The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again - They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men."

In their Commentary on the Book of Mormon for 3 Nephi Chapter 28, Reynolds and Sjodahl 9 provide the following list of key points about the chapter:

1. Each of the Twelve is granted his heart's desire.
2. Three elect to remain on Earth until the Lord comes in His glory.
3. Marvelous manifestations to the three.
4. They are made immune to death and disaster.

"Great were the wonders that attended the labors of these servants of God who were to tarry on earth unto the end. Death had no power over them; they passed through the most terrible ordeals unhurt. Swords could not touch them; fire could not burn them; savage beasts could not harm them; prisons could not hold them; chains could not bind them; the grave could not entomb them; the earth would not conceal them. No matter how much they were abused or maltreated, they triumphed over all their persecutors." 10

Genuine Early Christian Doctrines and Practices?

As we have already seen, the Apostles and their successors understood the importance of ordaining their successors. Controversies were always addressed by first establishing authority through a chain of succession back to the Apostles. These controversies arose because "deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:13) were trying to teach things that were not handed down from the Apostles to their successors as a part of the "deposit of faith". Upon reading the arguments put forth by the Early Church Fathers against these heretics, we can get a pretty good idea of the genuine early Christian doctrines and practices held to be true by the ancient Church.

Barry stated, "The doctrines and practices restored by Joseph Smith were genuine early Christian doctrines and practices." I beg to differ! An honest and open-minded reading of the Early Church Fathers reveals there is absolutely no credible evidence that unique LDS doctrines such as pre-mortal existence, baptism for the dead, plural marriages, the plurality of gods, and the notion that man may become a god of his own world, were ever taught or believed by the Church at any point after the time of Christ and prior to 1830 A.D. Why not? Are these new revelations that Christ forgot to mention to the Twelve in the Holy Land and the Twelve on the American continent? There is no mention of them in either the Bible or the Book of Mormon. These unique Mormon doctrines are only to be found in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

The REAL Apostasy

In John Chapter 6 we can read about a well-documented apostasy that actually took place in the presence of Our Lord. Understanding the reason for this apostasy is extremely important. The true meaning of this particular chapter is one of the key differences between the Catholic Church and the LDS church. After hearing what Jesus said, many of His disciples refused to believe His discourses at Capernaum and no longer went with him. Martin Luther also rejected this doctrine which had been believed by all Christians for fifteen hundred years prior to the Protestant revolt against the Catholic Church. It is still taught and believed by the Catholic Church today.

The miracle of the loaves and fish. (John 6:1-15)

Jesus asks His disciples how they will buy bread so that the people can eat. The only thing available was five barley loaves and two fish from a young lad. Jesus took their simple offering. Using almost the exact same words ("gave thanks" or "eucharistia" in Greek) as are used in Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29, to describe the institution of the Eucharist at the Last Supper, He performed a miracle and provided enough for five thousand to eat. He then instructed them to pickup the leftovers to show them (and us) that material resources are gifts of God and should not be wasted. Through this miracle, Jesus teaches His disciples to trust in Him whenever they meet up with difficulties in their apostolic endeavours in the future. He is also preparing them for what He is going to reveal to them in the discourses at Capernaum in which Jesus presents Himself as "the Bread of Life".

The discourse on the bread of life. (John 6:25-58)

Jesus starts out by telling the people that their attitudes are wrong. He indicates that if they have the right attitude they will be able to understand His teachings yet to come. He tells them that He is the Bread of Life, come down from heaven to give Himself sacramentally as genuine food. Through this discourse, Christ promised that He would give Himself, His own flesh and blood, in a real sense, as food and drink. Jesus is telling them many months prior to the Last Supper, that it will be His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity truly present in the Holy Eucharist. He made it abundantly clear that His flesh was true food and His blood was true drink. He told them over and over again that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood in order to have life within them. This terminology was not being used simply as a figure of speech. To the Jews, the phrase "to eat someone's flesh" meant to hate and vengefully persecute, and "to drink someone's blood" meant to visit severe punishments on them. 11 Neither of these meanings would make any sense in the context of what Jesus was saying to them. Please read John 6:25-58 very carefully again and ponder in your heart what Jesus meant by speaking these words. Was He speaking about a symbolic action to be done in remembrance of Him or did He actually mean what He was saying?

"This Saying is Hard" (John 6:60-70)

Here's where the apostasy took place even as Jesus was speaking to the people. The disciples' reaction was one of disgust. How can He give us His flesh to eat and His blood to drink? "This saying is hard; who can listen to it?" Many of His disciples simply could not accept what He was saying to them and they walked away, never to follow Him again. Rather than calling them back or trying to explain that He didn't really mean it the way they interpreted His words, He turned to the Twelve and asked them, "Will you also go away?" That same piercing question from Jesus applies to us as much today as it did back then. Do we also find this saying hard to accept? Will we also turn and walk away from Our Lord? Do we not have the faith necessary to believe these words?

The Catholic Church has always taught that Jesus Christ is truly present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity, in the Holy Eucharist through the mystery of Transubstantiation. Compare this with the Mormon teaching that the bread and wine (water) are merely emblems or symbols (Moroni 4 and 5). However, to complicate things, (3 Nephi 18:28-29) warns us not to partake of the flesh and blood of Christ unworthily. So which is it in the LDS church, a symbolic action to be done in remembrance of the body and blood of Christ, or is the bread and wine (water) His true flesh and blood?

Death came into the world through the sin of Adam. Bread is first mentioned in the Old Testament when God gives punishment to Adam. "In the sweat of your brow, you shall eat bread" (Genesis 3:19). Scripture again uses the word bread in conjunction with the word wine, "Then Melchizedek, the king of Salem (Jerusalem), brought out bread and wine; for he was a priest of the Most High God" (Genesis 14:18). It is significant that God mentions bread in his punishment of Adam, because the new Adam, Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:22), identifies Himself as "The Bread of Life". In the Book of Hebrews we read that, "Jesus has - become a high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek" (Hebrews 6:20) Like Melchizedek, Jesus is the King of Jerusalem, and a High Priest of God who offers bread and wine. Christ continues through His Catholic priests to offer the sacrifice of His body and blood, under the appearance of bread and wine, according to the order of Melchizedek. It is at the Last Supper (Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20, and 1 Corinthians 11:23-29) that Jesus clarifies what He spoke of earlier during His ministry. He is the true "bread of angels" (Psalms 78:23-25). Christ gives us His body, blood, soul and divinity under the taste and appearance of a meal of bread and wine. Through faith we recognize that the Holy Eucharist only appears to be bread, "they recognized Him in the breaking of the bread." (Luke 24:35)

Conclusion

By the Power of the Holy Spirit, the Son of God was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. He dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. He established a visible Church on earth to spread the Good News of His Gospel to all the nations, even until the end of time. He appointed Peter (Rock) to be the visible head of His Church on earth, to feed His lambs and to tend His sheep. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church on earth. Through apostolic succession we can be sure that the Priesthood power and authority of Jesus Christ has been maintained intact and protected by the Holy Spirit. The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church has been on the earth continuously since the beginning of Christian history. The Church has remained steadfast in the faith through an unbroken chain of succession from the ancient days of the Apostles to the bishops of our Catholic Church today. God has given His Church Seven Sacraments to be channels of His grace, His life, and His power. The genuine early Christian doctrines and practices, as I have clearly shown, are the ones found in the Catholic Church, not in the LDS church. There is no evidence in the writings of the early Church Fathers to support the unique LDS doctrines such as pre-mortal existence, baptism for the dead, plural marriages, the plurality of gods, and the notion that man may become a god of his own world. I ask my LDS brothers and sisters, as well as any other honest, open-minded seeker of truth, to not only read what Barry and I have written in this debate, but to also search through other available resources in order to find the truth. God has provided all of the public revelations necessary for us to work out our eternal salvation. Jesus is the "way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6). It is up to each of us to respond to His call and follow Him along the right path to holiness. I sincerely believe with all my heart that the correct path must ultimately lead to the Catholic Church, the one true Church established by Jesus Christ as a shining light to the world.